Be More Inclusive

Izzy: Hello and welcome to the Carbon Copy Podcast with me, Isabelle Sparrow. 

Brad: And me, Bradley Ingham.  

Izzy: Today’s episode is all about inclusion, making sure that the movement for climate and nature is fair and open to everyone, in every community. 

Brad: Tackling the climate crisis isn’t just about cutting carbon, it’s about making sure no one gets left out of the conversation or the solutions. And that means being inclusive in every sense: race, class, gender, age, ability, and geography. 

Izzy: Exactly. And that’s something we really try to reflect in this podcast, sharing stories from all corners of the UK, whether it’s a rural farming community, an urban neighbourhood, or a small coastal town.  

Brad: To start with, I think it’s important to get to grips with why inclusivity is essential if we want real, lasting impact and how the sector is beginning to hold itself accountable, with projects like The RACE Report: Racial Action for the Climate Emergency.  

Izzy: The RACE report focuses on charities and funders working on environmental and conservation issues, highlighting the need for greater representation in sustainability and climate action. Because as we’ve discussed in our previous series All Nature, the environment and conservation professions are amongst the least diverse in the UK. 

Brad: According to The RACE Report, just 4.5% of staff in UK environmental, conservation and climate-charity organisations identify as people of colour, compared with 16% of the national workforce. 

Izzy: Those numbers are pretty stark, it really does show how far the sector has to go in reflecting the diversity of the communities it serves. 

Brad: We only need to look at the news to see how extreme weather is disproportionally affecting countries in the global south. If we want to build a fair transition, everyone’s voices need to be at the table. 

Izzy: Absolutely and inclusion isn’t just a moral issue, it’s a practical one too. The more perspectives we include, the more creative and better our ideas become, making our actions stronger. 

Brad: It’s all about making climate action that actually works for real people’s lives, not just policy papers! 

Izzy: So, I think let’s hand it over to one of our guests to take a bit more of a deep dive into why this issue is so important to get right. Our first guest is Mya-Rose Craig, youth activist, author and founder of Black2Nature, a charity which is on a mission to get more young people to experience nature and learn about environmental issues. Mya-Rose told us about how her work in the south west of England and how it all came about. 

Mya-Rose: So I’ve been involved in kind of all sorts of causes over the years from kind of like climate change to rewilding and your back garden. Like I think all of it’s so important. But as someone who really loves nature, I also started my charity Black2Nature about 10 years ago now actually, with the goal of making the countryside kind of more diverse and welcoming and also giving more people the opportunity to fall in love with nature. 

It kind of came from a life of lived experience, where I was very aware that no one looked like me or my family out in nature. To be honest, it seemed like only a very small group in general in the country kind of were going out enjoying nature. And I think that really upset me as a kid, as someone who really loved it and wanted to share that with other people. There’s all sorts of stuff that’s become part of it since, and you know, feels very important to me, you know, to do with like environmental education and mental and physical health and stuff like that. But I think like I was so young when I started it that I do think it came from just like a very honest, almost like childish desire to share the thing that I really loved with other kids. And it kind of grew and grew from there 

I threw one original, like camp, basically, like residential camp, which is what triggered all of this. And so it wasn’t like, “I’m going to start an organisation”, but it was like, “Oh, that was a really good event.” I watched the kids that came on this event fall in love with nature. I want to do more of those. The more that I did, it kind of became more and more of a thing. And then like, suddenly, you know, you’re applying for charity status and it’s like, “Oh my god, I’ve got a charity. How’s that? How’s that happened?” 

But you know, I was so young at the time that I think a lot of it came, you know, there was not really any knowledge there, it was just like, a desire to do something. And but doing that over again until it like turned into like something.  

Izzy: I think something that is remarkable about this is that Mya-Rose was only 13 when she started this journey! She reflected that from that first camp, it grew into something much larger than she had ever initially imagined, but the real turning point was in 2016 when she held a conference. 

Mya-Rose: After that first camp, I’d had loads of organisations write me and be like, “Whoa, how have you done this? Please advise”. And I was like, I can’t really cause I’m a 13-year-old girl and I have school and also I didn’t really do anything! Um, but I decided I wanted to bring everything together into one space and get experts from these communities to talk to people from these organisations and just have like an actual conversation. It was my mum who was like, “Mya, that’s a conference.” Okay. Um, I guess that’s, that’s what we’re doing here. And we, there are these fantastic conversations. I was like, clearly they’ve never gone and talked to these people before because we literally had community leaders come in and be like, “Right. These are the reasons we don’t go out in nature. It’s this, this, this, and this.” And then in the afternoon, we, uh, ran a series of workshops where they all had to talk to each other and come up with solutions and like a step-by-step plan. And I came away and I was like, yeah, right. Bosh, solved this! Um [laughs] and I think actually it was the kind of waiting for any action afterwards. You know, I was 14. I’d never particularly encountered bureaucracy before. But also like literally nothing happened. And eventually I was like, “Okay, they’re not going to do anything. They’ve talked the talk, but they’re not going to walk the walk.” And that’s when it became a longer-term project. It was when I was like, okay, we’re going to have to do some more like chivvying to get any progress. Um, so that’s kind of why it ended up like it was. There was never any intention of it being this ongoing thing. 

Brad: I was curious to know what happens in these camps, Mya-Rose told us about the ins and outs of it all and how she learned very quickly about how different people experience nature in their own way and what the barriers were to accessing nature for some people. 

Mya-Rose: We do such a range of stuff, um, and to an extent depends which location we’re camping on. But I think like the biggest lesson I learned very quickly in terms of all of this was there’s like, you know, this certain type of people who are always out in nature, but also actually, a certain type of activity that we think of as being out in nature. And it’s like, actually like one of the big things was realising that it’s almost like every single person could engage with nature and the outdoors in a different way. And that, and that’s okay and kind of figuring out how to work with that. So like for me, I like bird watching. So clearly I like more traditional, methodical, scientific stuff, you know, um, I like a list. So we do, you know, lots of bird watching, but we also do like photography. We’ve done nature art. So like, um, natural printing with dyes and like cooking and pond dipping and bioblitzing. And you know, like we go in all these different directions. So it’s like practical and creative and scientific and you know, all of these different things. And I think the thought is that kind of by weaving all of these threads together, there will be something for everyone. And there’s less of an expectation that people enjoy just on a basic level being outside, especially because, you know, for a lot of the kids that we worked with, they had previously basically never been to the countryside and it’s almost this thing of like, you get there and you’re like, okay, what do I do? Like, am I just going to stand here in this field? Like, why is this interesting? And so it’s almost kind of trying to open up a very unfamiliar space to people who would benefit from being there, which I guess on the flip side is why environmental education is so important as well, but because we’re talking about people who literally don’t know what biodiversity is, both on like a scientific level and an lived experience level. So it’s like, why should they care about like biodiversity loss? They have no reason to. 

Brad: It’s a really interesting point that she puts across here, and not one I’ve thought about too much before. I know I’ve been privileged enough to have had a lot of lived experience out in nature, and I guess I’ve kind of taken it for granted that I know I’m happy to just go on a walk and observe what’s happening around me, but I guess that comes from a place of familiarity. However, for someone that has little or no experience in nature, creating those engaging moments really are key entry points into appreciating and understanding the bigger picture! What’s your thoughts on this Izzy? 

Izzy: Yeah I mean I think, with anything, if it’s something that is not a regular part of your daily life it can sometimes be hard to find that thing that makes it interesting for you. It’s the same as when you go to school, and you’re studying a subject that maybe you find difficult or you’re not familiar with it, and you know, it sometimes takes a teacher or you know, a leader kind of turning the subject on it’s head to make it easier for you to understand. And I think that’s kind of what Mya-Rose is talking about with these camps. It’s about showing these young people that there is a huge variety of different ways that they can get involved with this stuff and that nature can be involved in lots of different enjoyable things, not just the kind of “classic” things like bird watching. 

Brad: And it’s not just about confidence and motivation – it’s also about the practical barriers, as Mya-Rose explained. 

Mya-Rose: For the kids that we work with, it’s quite a unique space because it kind of, for example, everything’s completely free. Um, so we run purely off of, um, grant funding basically. I guess I think back to that first conference, even though if there’s been some since about kind of people talking about what the issues were and trying to overcome those. So it could be as simple as like not being able to afford, transport to the countryside, not being afford to take an afternoon off work to take your kids. To people not having suitable shoes or a coat to go outside. So we have like, you know, loads of wellies and coats and sleeping bags for the kids, you know, it’s stuff like this where we’ve just like accumulated loads of stuff, trying to cover all our bases. 

So for the first few years, it was me with the help of my family, running this thing, in kind of a decreasingly hodgepodge way, I guess! But then I went off to uni when I was 19, or kind of during COVID times, which coincided with us managing to get a really solid lump of funding, basically. So that meant that we were able to get like a full-time employee who is literally Wonder Woman. She spins so many plates, but she kind of does the day-to-day runnings. And then we have other volunteers coming in and working on the camps. And for those volunteers, we like them to be kind of young people. Always kind of minority ethnic, but young people normally like late teens, early twenties, who can kind of both, look after the kids, but also be a bit of a role model to the kids as well. 

Izzy: This makes me think back to an episode we recorded last year with Gnisha Bevan, who’s co-founder of the Black Seeds Network, also coincidentally in Bristol. Gnisha spoke to us a lot about the importance of community leaders and how trust has a huge part to play. I can see that having young people of colour leading these camps would really help build that trust and belief that nature is for everyone.  

If you’re interested to hear that episode with Gnisha, please do go back and listen, it’s on the Carbon Copy website and wherever you get your podcasts. 

So, Mya-Rose told us more about how challenging the mindset shift can be. 

Mya-Rose: I think one of the really tricky things working with these kids in these communities is they’re worried that the countryside is going to be a very unwelcoming, potentially racist space. And it really upsets me when that is proven correct. Just making sure that the countryside is a welcoming space because it is for everyone. And like, if you’re assuming, that kids down at the reserve are making trouble when they’re not doing anything wrong, like stuff like that, remembering that the countryside isn’t some like private garden. It is literally for everyone. Um, I think on the flip side, one of the reasons that we have such a big issue to do with accessibility to nature in the UK specifically is because we have so little of it left. We’re one of the worst countries in the world for biodiversity. We have just over half of it remaining, which is terrible. And so I think thinking about local rewilding projects or like places that the community can get involved and stuff like that, even if it’s like a local garden where the school kids can come play stuff like that is really important, making nature a communal space again. It links into bigger issues, the quality of green space is the fact that it’s much, much poorer in lower income areas at the moment and stuff like that. I guess the thing that’s really lovely compared to looking back 10 years ago is there are so many different groups doing stuff like this now. Like the classic ones, of course, like Flock Together and Black Girl Hike, the space is diversifying and clearly there is a desire to go outside. I think we’ve really saw that during COVID. And so it’s like thinking about how to make the outdoors an accepting open space.  

(music) 

Izzy: Do you know someone who’s passionate about fairness and community? Maybe they’ve felt a bit left out of the climate conversation? Share this episode with them or send them over to Carbon Copy’s website, where we’ve gathered plenty of resources on how to make your local climate action more inclusive. Check out the show notes for all the links you need. 

(cut music) 

Brad: Our next guest is Emma River-Roberts Co-Director for the Working Class Climate Alliance, an organisation spanning 26 countries that supports working-class communities and trade unions in environmental campaigns at the local, national and international level.  

Izzy: When it comes to inclusivity, class isn’t often top of people’s minds. I think in the UK sometimes people feel a bit unwilling to admit that classism is still very much a thing, you know, we like to think that we have won the battle and that social mobility is working and it doesn’t matter what sort of upbringing you’ve had – but in chatting to Emma it was very clear that this is not the case, and that in the climate sector as well as wider society, there is still a lot of work to be done. 

Emma: So it came from years of me, sort of I say dabbling in the climate movement, because I wanted to get involved, but I never felt really welcome. There was a lot of classism. And in terms of trying to say, “Well, am I working class or am I from a working class background?” It all comes down to, I think, trying to pick out those relations and resources that we’ve had available to us. It’s actually very difficult to define, but essentially it’s created through a combination of economic, social, and cultural relations and resources. So it’s not just determined by economic indicators, such as what our job is, how much money we earn, whether we have to sell our labour for wages or not. Because if we looked at it that way, we could say that a brain surgeon is working class, even though they earn sort of a lot of money.  

So seeing class in a more holistic light acknowledges that it’s shaped by a combination of other demographic factors, such as race, age, gender, geographical location, as well as the everyday cultural practices and social interactions that we take part in, such as what we do in our spare time and the social networks that we have access to. 

Because taken together, these relations and resources determine the opportunities that are available or unavailable to us in life, the values and taboos that we hold, how we speak and behave, why we do or do not relate to others. 

And throughout this process, we learn how to become a particular kind of person and how to establish a sense of belonging within certain communities and social groups, which is why, for example, like, if, just to hone in on the climate thing, when working class people, if they were to walk into a climate space where nobody looks or sounds like them, where environmentalism has become so classed at the moment, they think, “Oh, it’s not a space for people like me.” 

And I realised there just wasn’t a space for an explicit working class space in the climate movement that really spoke about classism. 

So I thought, looked around, there weren’t any spaces that existed. So I figured I’d give it a go. I never run an organisation before. I didn’t know what to expect, but yeah. 

Brad: It feels like there are definitely echoes of what we heard from Mya-Rose here. It’s really concerning to think that the climate and environment sectors have this elitist, exclusionary undertone – and whether or not that is conscious or unconscious, it means that huge chunks of the population are being missed out of the conversation. 

Izzy: Yep, absolutely. So what do we do about it? How can we break down those barriers? 

Emma: I’ll start with the harder one. The harder one, I think a lot of people just can’t control, but I’m sure there’ll be some people out there who can, is removing economic barriers to participation where possible. And I know this comes back to needing money, so it’s people either can or, they can’t do it, but if it’s possible to pay for people’s travel, pay or arrange childcare costs, even if it’s like a day long event, offering food, that goes a very long way. 

Language is a key part of making all of this a lot more inclusive because I think a lot of the climate movement, and even myself at times, we take for granted some of the terms or the phrases that people use like “polycrisis”, “socio-ecological transformation”. If we’re talking about civil society work, “theories of change”, and if you’re listening to someone saying that, it’s like, yeah, people don’t talk like that in real life. 

And it can be quite disconcerting because it’s, on the one hand, people listening to that who are unfamiliar doubt themselves and go, “oh, I don’t know what I’m doing, environmentalism isn’t for me, I have nothing of value to give because I don’t know all these words”. So I would always suggest, well, firstly, if you don’t need to use the term, don’t, just say what you’re talking about without, you know, that’s not to say we should write off terms by any means, but with initial conversations and discussions, just no terms, ban the jargon! 

 And it can be quite hard because we are creatures of habit. So one thing I’d actually really recommend is what I call “practice before you preach.” So actually try having a conversation with people in your group, your peers, or even yourself, which is a bit weird talking to yourself at first, try and actually talk about important issues without using any terms. 

And what we find is that the more that you do it and try it, the first couple attempts might not make much sense because people are so used to relying on these shorthand examples. And then you become much more attuned to explaining very complex ideas and theories just in everyday language. 

So that one does take practice, but I would really stick with it because yeah, when you go and speak to people, in the community, you can make, you can build that rapport straight away rather than making it just sound like a lesson or a lecture. 

And in terms of communication, it’s actually a notoriously different style of communication across the classes. So you’ve got these natural tensions. And for me, the only way that I’ve been able to successfully overcome it through the WCCA is through explicit facilitation that hones in on how do you like to communicate concepts, what works, what doesn’t, actually getting people in a room, rather than trying to think, !oh, should we try this, try” – no, just ask people explicitly, it can be a bit awkward. I think sometimes like culture in this country is we like to dance around awkward issues. And it’s like just prepare to be awkward!  

Another one which does require more resources is reaching out to existing organisations or grassroots groups in the area. So we’re not just talking about climate focused ones because the climate relates to everything. It could be like housing, racial justice, migrant justice, and saying, “What are you doing? Can we come to your meetings? We’d love to hear more about the work that you do. Is there any scope for us potentially putting on events together or having talks or meetings together?” 

Because even with the best will in the world, I’ve seen it where climate groups have put on these events, they want everyone to come, and they’ll send a single invite to another organisation saying, “Oh, come to this event.” And it comes across as really disingenuous because they’re like, you come to us. 

And I’ve received many invites where it’s like, you just want me here to fill your numbers up and to tick a box. So it’s centred around building that long-term relatability saying, “We’d love to have you in our spaces, but we also want to be in your spaces.” 

And reaching out to those groups, they don’t just have access to working class knowledge and resources, they are the working class. So you’ve immediately got those broader networks, knowledge and vital skills through that. 

Brad: As we often discuss at Carbon Copy, environmental issues can’t be separated from social and economic issues, and this is very much part of what Emma’s work at the WCCA is all about. They want to ensure there is better representation and decision-making power for the working class, not just participation. 

Emma: So for us at the WCCA, what we are communicating, it’s led by the people that we spend time with. So they tell us what their most pressing needs are and what they want to talk about, because otherwise we’re just going to go in and we’re basically second-guessing it. 

So for example, at the start of probably about the middle of this year, we’ve entered into a campaign with a branch of Unison. And what they said to us was their most pressing issue is rising support for the far right, but also a lack of access to green space in the community. 

And so for us, our job then is, okay, how do we firstly communicate those most important issues to people, but also how do we make the climate relevant rather than to those issues? So how do we show that link between the far right and climate breakdown, how that’s going to negatively impact working class and actually everyone now and in the future? 

So sometimes it’s a case of taking in any other issue that they’re saying and saying, “I see you and I hear you and we’re here to talk about it. This is how the climate’s relevant to it.” And I see a lot of groups are trying to do it the other way and it’s like, no, no. Because, you know, for example, with the far right, if you’re in a part of the country that’s unsafe for communities where you’re being physically attacked… The birds and the bees and the polar bears, we care about them, but we’re more worried about getting bricks through our windows. So it’s being much sort of attuned to that.  

So I’d say my big hope is to see more working class people, people from working class backgrounds. I’m not going to say in the climate movement because working class people have a long history of fighting ecological, economic and social injustices, but to have them in more decision roles where they’re able to influence decisions, like policymaking or the strategies of a campaign. Because we know that working class people do generally lack that “in” to actually make sort of change outside of localised levels. 

So that is like my big hope. And in terms of how it can create that long-term change, it’s because you don’t know what you don’t know. And working class people sort of have the knowledge of what’s best for their community. They have vital knowledge that’s generally missed out of large campaigns or policymaking drives or whatever, because no one actually asks them. 

So it creates a climate movement that’s rooted not just in climate justice, but social justice as well, because it’s fundamentally democratic. So I think that’s what it provides in the long-term, is that social justice element to it. 

Izzy: We’ve touched on this quite a lot this year as well, this idea that social justice is so heavily intertwined with the environmental movement and a lot of the things that make people’s lives better and fairer and more equal are also things that are positive for the environment so all of this stuff, whichever angle you’re coming at it from, whether it’s from a specifically environmental angle or whether it’s from a fairness and equality angle; it’s all leading to you know hopefully the same  united positive outcomes. 

We also asked Mya-Rose what motivates her and what she thinks can help push the dial in the right direction. 

Mya-Rose: I think my instinct would be to say just that hope is action and like doing stuff is genuinely the most important thing. And that’s why to an extent I set up Black2Nature rather than just campaigning. I could have like talked and talked and talked about change at a very top down level, which probably, which that kind of stuff, which I, we have worked towards and worked with lots of big organisations and it affects a lot of people, but it also takes a really long time. And I feel like in the short term, especially the first few years of that campaign, it was like the ability to work with people on a direct human level and to see change that you’re creating and know that you’re making difference on all this kind of stuff. Um, and so I’d really like, I know, very basic advice, but I really would advise people to get involved in some way. Cause I think also, the key to the future is community, whether that’s kind of, feeling or community action I think kind of forming bonds again with the people around you, taking action, even if it is literally like organising the local litter pick or doing like a leafletting campaign. When you meet other people who also care and are also doing things, it helps you to stay hopeful. Cause you realise that everyone isn’t as awful as you might think if you’re just sat at home feeling awful about the world, which I’m not saying that’ll like single handedly save the world. What we need is like broad systemic action. But I think like the key to the future is both top down and bottom up. We need both at the same time. Um, and so yeah, just thinking about like the small changes that you can make in the world, both in your personal life and within your local community. 

Brad: I think that’s a good point that we’ve touched on there. And we’ve talked about it quite a lot over this series, it is hard to feel hopeful sometimes, but action locally can and does make you feel better and creates ripples of change in your community! I think shall we have a look over what we’ve learned today Izzy? 

Izzy: We’ve learned that being inclusive isn’t just about representation, it’s about removing the barriers that stop people from taking part. Whether that’s financial, cultural, or simply a lack of welcome, working together with members of different communities is key to stronger understanding and solutions that work for everyone. 

Brad: From Mya-Rose’s work with Black2Nature, we’ve heard how creating space and access can completely change how young people connect with the natural world and how that ripple effect spreads to families and communities. 

Izzy: And from Emma we learned that inclusion starts with listening. By meeting people where they are and using plain language, and sharing power, we make climate action something that’s for everyone, not just those already in the room. 

Brad: Exactly, inclusion makes the climate movement much stronger. The more voices we hear, the more ideas we share, and the better our solutions become. So whatever your project, wherever you live, think about who’s missing from the conversation, and how you can bring them in. 

Izzy: So that brings us to the end of today’s episode and to the end of this series, Do Something Bigger. 

Brad: Over 25 episodes, we’ve explored local actions across the UK, from rewilding to renewable energy to flood resilience and community ownership all led by people who’ve rolled up their sleeves and made change happen. 

Izzy: We’ve seen time and time again is that the most powerful solutions are the ones that bring people together, the ones that are inclusive, collaborative, and rooted in the places we call home! When we widen the circle and make sure everyone has a voice, that’s when local action becomes something much bigger. 

Brad: So if you’ve been inspired by this series, we’d love you to take that next step! Talk to your neighbours, join a local project, or even start one of your own. Get in touch or leave us a review at carboncopy.eco that’s E C O, we’d love to hear from you. 

Izzy: And of course, you can find loads of inspiration and practical resources on the Carbon Copy website. 

Brad: From both of us, and the whole Carbon Copy team thank you for listening, for sharing, and for being part of the movement to Do Something Bigger. 

Izzy: We’ll be back next year with something a little bit different, but very exciting! Make sure you follow us to keep up to date with what’s coming next! 

Brad: This episode was written and presented by me, Bradley Ingham. 

Izzy: and me, Isabelle Sparrow. Brad also produced and edited this episode. Huge thanks to our guests Emma River-Roberts Co-Director of the Working Class Climate Alliance and Mya-Rose Craig, founder of Black2Nature for their insights, and thanks to you for listening. Goodbye for now!